San Diego Women Leaders Association Chapter Meeting: Handling Tough Conversations with Ease

[music] [music] [music] Well, now we're going to go to our final presentation of the afternoon. So, Cheyenne, can you say hello and give us a self introduction? Hey everyone, my name is Cheyenne Samson. I am a global VP of sales and success at New Relic. As Jackie had mentioned earlier, New Relic is an observability platform. Um, so what our our software does is it detects performance and anomalies within code. Um, so it's nice to meet everybody and I look forward to our conversation. Can I? Yep. Pull up your slides and take it away. Thank you. So I'm not going to pull up my slides right away. So, hold on on the slides. Um, if anybody wants to turn their camera on, I'd love to just kind of have a conversation first. If you don't want to, that's fine as well. Um, but I I think I think watching the presentations for so long, I'm like, let's have a conversation. There's so many amazing women on this call. I mean, even listening to Lynn just now, if I had her ability at her age, I think I could rule the world by now, right? And so Lynn, I mean, super impressive and she's going to go so far in her career, just an amazing group of women. So I'd love to hear from And thank you, Katherine, so you and I can chat. Um, but so my topic today is um is handling tough conversations with ease. But before we get into slides, and I think you guys are going to get shared on these slides, and that's great. Let's level set on what we think a tough conversation is and why tough conversations are tough. So for those of you on the call, what makes a conversation tough? I'll bite. Um so for me it's um probably goes back a little bit to that imposttor syndrome. Am I truly right about what I'm about to say? Have I done all my research? Is there any holes in my argument? Did I did I, you know, get my litigation skills in there? Um, uh, yeah, those the the insecurity about my my my posture, I guess. Oh, I love that. That's such a good one. Am I right about what I'm about to say? I love these that are coming in. Tension. Yes. Where um um, Marisol, you don't have to necessarily come on camera. Um, but where do you think tension comes from? I know you're on here. You mentioned it. The boss. It could It could come from the boss. It could come from the employee. It could come from other people in the room. Absolutely. I think timing, right? I think sometimes timing. Absolutely. Thank you for that one. Anything else? Why else could conversations be tough for those of us that are leaders or maybe not even leaders if you're just, you know, um, uh, upleveling to your boss, to your coworker? I know we got at least one more. I want one more answer. Come on. Oh, that [laughter] Marissa went she coming in with a heavy hitter. I love that. Having all male partners who don't think the same. That's a really good one. I love that you called that out. Uh situation with the company. Absolutely. I want to um start this conversation with understanding that tough conversations don't always have to be tough, right? First of all, avoiding them is not helpful. And and and um let me get into slideshow mode. Avoiding the conversation is not helpful. It doesn't go away. it just becomes a long-term issue I would say right and I think we've all learned that in our career it may not always go away may not it may just evolve into something else so as we discussed there's so many things that go into it being a tough conversation but one of the number one things is misalignment so going back to Katherine's point right I don't know if what I'm coming into this conversation is the right thing that could be due to misalignment So, are we aligned on what the expectations were? So, we're going to talk about expectations. Emotions could be high. So, to that beautiful comment that Marissa just put in about having a, you know, um, again, it's misalignment, but having a a team that may not see the same things the way that you do due to background or what have you, right? So, emotions could be high. Um, timing. Um, and is it is it Marisol or is it Marisol? I don't think she has her volume, so hopefully I'm getting it right. Um, and there could be sensitive subjects, right? And then also controllable versus uncontrollable. So, one of the first things when it comes down to having tough conversations, I think it's important, especially as women, there has been a a a trope our whole lives that women are emotional. And it's funny because men don't recognize that anger is an emotion, right? But in my experience, and it may be different for all of you, that I feel like men are just as emotional, if not more. And so when it comes to these tough conversations, I think it's important to understand that we are not biologically equipped to handle tough conversations as a human species. Not just men, not just women, all of us. Because uh from our origins, we were predisposed to fight or flight. Well, fight or flight doesn't dictate hanging around and working it out. Right now, we're evolving into that. But I think our core still has a little bit of that and it's something we have to fight against. So if you flee from tough conversations or you dive head head in and you're willing to go toe-to-toe, don't fault yourself for that. That comes from just human genetics and something that we need to work against. Right? But going back to misalignment, I think the core of everything. Do you all remember um as some of you are too young on here, but sitcoms? So, if anybody can think of a sitcom where you're always like, "If they would just talk, they would just talk." Like, all these crazy scenarios would happen and they would be all over the place and you're like, "If they would just talk." I feel like that's the same with arguments. before I get into arguments. So, to give you an example, even with my mom, my mom, she'll she'll come in hot with something, right? And I always make her define terms. She'll say, "You you what did she say to me lately?" I don't know. She said, "I bully her." "Oh, you bully me." And I said, "Okay, mom, but define that. Define what do you what do you mean by I bully you?" "Well, you always call me out when I say something to you." And I go, "Okay, so hold on. What does bully mean?" Right? And so we had to set and we had to align on terms before we even dug into the conversation. What she meant was she didn't like being called out when she was saying inappropriate things or what have you. She that's what she considered bullying. But once we defined her, she goes, "Okay, it's not bullying, but I don't like that you call me out." And I'm like, "Okay, so let's realign and then we can talk and adjust how we're communicating to each other." So I think just in life in general setting those expectations setting expectations and aligning on terms. I want to go to the data to back this up. So has anybody read and actually I hate when it's in presentation mode. I'm sorry. I want to do it this way so I can see comments etc. But if you has anybody read first break all the rules and I'm looking at comments right now. Anybody read it? No. Okay. So, nos, no guesses. Okay. So, first break all the rules. What they did in that book to kick it off is the authors and I think there's two or three authors of of that book um did a deep dive and company research across 500 different organizations various sizes various sizes of organizations various number of employees various industries and started researching what tied into employee satisfaction and rep employee retention. The 12 questions that came out. Yeah, I I'll repeat it. Um, I got you. The 12 questions that came out of that ended up determining the level at which a an employee would retain and how satisfied an employee was. And it became so effective and efficient, Gallup adopted those 12 questions. And so when you do gallop poll there's actually an entire science behind that that came and originated from this book. So it's called first break all the rules. Now one of the questions of those 12 questions is a very simple question. Do I know what's expected me of me at work? Now this is for direct report employees but this could be do I know what's expected of the relationship I share with marketing? Do I know what's expected of the relationship I share with a co-orker? Right? And so this goes back to people are more satisfied with relationships. They're more satisfied in uh business aspect. They're more satisfied in co-worker relationships if they know what's expected of them. Expectations also help align on what Katherine called out earlier that do I know if I'm right? Right. Um and then also I think um Marisol and a couple of things the tension expectations help with tension. Expectations help with timing. Expectations help with a lot of these things. So one of the things that I do with my team. So um when I joined up at New Relic, let me give you an example. So when I joined up at New Relic um um and started my organization so I started from 20 people and I've grown it to just under a hundred in this last two years but when I started with the organization um they didn't have the process around expectations etc. But I did for my team. So I employed I have lists of everything that's expected of every every employee at every level and that is sent out to all of my teams at the beginning of each quarter and everyone signs off what's expected on them. Everything from culture to KPIs to deliverables and deadlines to goals and outcomes. If I ever find myself addressing it, I always put it in writing. So that's my if and this goes to colleagues as well. So let's say you have a colleague in or someone in across department from you that just never delivers anything on time. Have you set that expectation? And if the answer is yes, yes, we verb verbally have set that expectation. Is it in writing? Now that doesn't mean they're going to that's going to magically solve and they're going to do it. But it makes the conversation so much easier because then you simply pull up the writing and say here's what we agreed upon on this date and that cuts out a lot of the nuance. Right? So let me tell you if you don't have clear expectations in place predominantly tough conversations become tougher because you spend so much time arguing around what was expected and what each party deems to be the truth. So set those expectations out of the gate. And if you haven't, then start the conversation setting the expectations. For example, let's say Katherine, um, you have such a great energy, by the way. Um, so let's say Katherine and I work together and I've fallen short. Oh, this is great. You joined me. Let's let's role play. So let's let's say Katherine and I work together and I've let her down, right? and she's got to come to the conversation and maybe there's a a project that my deliverables are impacting her deliverables. So, we come to this conversation, Katherine, right out of the gates, what would you need if we were going to set expectations before going into it? What would you need to clarify before we even started the conversation, do you think? Or how would you start into that conversation? Is this before or after you've disappointed me? I've let you down. [laughter] Um I guess uh mitigating circumstances. Was there I mean I from our past experience I'm I'm making assumptions here. You know things did not suck and apparently they do now. So is there something that happened? Is there a mitigating circumstance um and why you did not meet the obligation? That's the first thing I need to understand because in any work environment, what I find is I can be overruled, right? There might there's probably a bigger fish out there that had a demand of you, but I need to know what I'm up against. That'd be my first question. You can tell Catherine's a pro because what she just did right there is called seeking to understand. So before you make any type of assumption, you seek to understand. So, Katherine said, "Hey, is there anything outside of this that maybe I don't know that could have held you back from doing this?" And I love that you did that because you actually I stand corrected. That's a great way to start. It's a better way to start than expectations because I want to seek to understand first. So, thank you for doing that because it's it's better than where I was going. Now, after seeking to understand and saying like, "Hey, did I did I fall short? Is there something did something hold you up? Is there a misalignment?" Okay. Then the second step is if that's all no, everything's fine and dandy, then it is, hey Catherine. Okay. So everything's nothing has changed. So I was under the impression and going into this that you had a deliverable date of March 17th. Um, and we had agreed that you were going to accomplish A, B, and C, so I could do DEF. Is that your understanding as well? And then Katherine goes, "Yeah, that's my understanding." Or, "No, that's my not my understanding." Because first thing if she says, "No, that's my understanding." I'm gonna say, "Okay, what did you understand that this path was?" And she might come back, "Oh, I thought you said I could I didn't need to get it to till the end of the month." Now, we know expectations weren't clear. We didn't have it in writing. We were not aligned. And that's the problem. It's not that she's out to get me. It's not that she doesn't respect my time. But I really I almost want to add that other slide. Seek to understand and then clear expectations. Right? So thank you for for contributing that. So once your expectations are set then number two is to start with the outcome in mind. So what that means is so let's say someone let's take a personal experience. Okay. So expectations are clear. My son knows he needs to take out the the trash, right? Every Tuesday. Expectations are clear. I'm pissed. I'm going in hot, right? And so instead of going in hot to say, "You didn't do it." I have to who saw it and say, "Okay, but what do I want the outcome to be?" Well, I want him to take up freaking trash. Okay. Well, that's not it. What do I really want the outcome to be? I want him to do what he needs to do without me telling him cuz I don't like the way it makes me feel to hold him accountable, right? Like he I just want him to do it. Same with someone on your team. Same with someone that reports to you. Same with your boss. Sometimes we have to manage up. So, okay, if expectations are clear and we both know what's expected and we're both aligned on the terms, then second, what do I want for this relationship? Right? So you have to ask yourself what do I want right for me? What do I want for them? And what do I want for our relationship? So clarifying those objection objectives before initiating the conversation. So before I even speak to Catherine, I'm like, okay, I'm going in hot on Catherine because she didn't show up to this deadline. Hold on. What do I want for our future relationship? Well, I really like Katherine. She's [ __ ] awesome. I want to continue to work with her. So I don't want to piss her off and I am coming in hot. Okay. So for the future, our future relationship, I want us to collaborate, but I also don't want to be here again. Right? So then identifying and visualizing, okay, these are my desired outcomes. Here's what I want for her. Here's what I want from me. And here's what I want for our relationship. And then in our conversation, I can clearly outline what needs to be achieved to get there. Hey, in order for us to have a strong working relationship, it sounds like we misststepped on this one. In the future, let's write everything down and then let's do a sooner check-in. I think we waited too long to do this check-in. Let's do a sooner check-in and let's make sure that we're following through. Now, this last one, anticipate challenges. You're in your mind, you're going, "Yeah, and maybe you're thinking someone you're like, that won't work with this person because now I'm just going to have to babysit them." Okay, then that's considering a potential obstacle. So, what I would say then is to set those expectations in the conversation. Hey, in the past, I've always had to follow up with you and I don't want that for our relationship moving forward. Can I count on you getting that contract from them? Can I count on you to see this through without me having to follow up? Great. Right. Um, there is an outstanding book that if you have trouble with crucial conversations, the book crucial conversations is gamechanging and it talks about a lot of this. There's a few things that I pulled in here as well, but a lot of this comes from crucial conversations and it's something I read back in early 2000s that kind of framed my whole uh mentality around this type of approach. Now, I feel like I'm a pro at tough conversations, but it definitely takes a lot of trial and error. Right now, now I love this next one because this is Katherine called it out and I'm like, man, I I maybe should reframe this, but that seek to understand and you're you're an expert at it. The way that you approach that call, but seeking to understand rather than assuming, right? Seeking to understand and then to be understood. There's a few things around this one. being genuinely interested. Not, oh, I'm going to ask you, oh, were you out? Were you sick? Because I'm seeking to understand. No, I'm genuinely interested. Is there something that held you back from doing this? Is there something I don't know? Make sure that you're listening to that and then avoid that criticism and condemnation, right? It's like, hey, I got a who saw it back. Now, I have struggled with this. I'm very passionate. I'm very direct. People love or hate me. People love me or people can't stand me. And I get it. I totally get it. I'm a lot to take in. But I'm a very direct person and sometimes I'm a hard pill to swallow. Um and and I get pissed off at people, right? I'm like, "Do your job." Because I have a lot of pressure on me in sales. I'm like, "Do your job." I've had to tone it down over the years as I've excelled in my career. And this really helped me. This framework here was gamechanging for me. So if you find yourself taking things personally, so let's say someone does something and you're like, Katherine clearly hates me because she doesn't deliver it on time and she knows I she knows she knows I'm waiting on her and now I'm going to look bad and this is just, you know what I mean? This mentality that I got out of this book, it's the uh the 15 commitments of leadership. It's the above the line and the below the line mentality. When we are operating above the line, it's it's almost like um I guess a better way to say it might be be a better person, right? But above the line, when you are above the line, you can recognize yourself as being above the line because you're open, you're curious, right? You are seeking to understand, you're committed to learning. I'm open. When I'm below the line, I'm closed off. I'm defensive and I'm committed to being right. Right. And so that being below the line. So if we look at this and and we think about, okay, if I'm close, I'm defensive, and I'm committed to being right, it's going to make a conversation so much tougher if we're approaching it from that mentality. So getting our mind right to say okay I can't come to this with my own conclusions I have to seek to understand I need to be open I need to be curious I need to be committed to learning and now you may be thinking I've dealt with some real pain in the ass humans in my time that it they challenged this whole thing for me but I want you to think don't think about them in it think about you and how you're growing and what you're bringing to the because you're not going to be able to fix or correct everyone. You may have a boss right now that you're going to have to use some of these techniques with. You may have an employee that you use some of these um techniques with that do not mesh well with it. They don't like when you seek to understand. They don't answer your questions. Whatever it is, but you are learning, growing, and getting better. Don't change to their technique. Just perfect yours. Right? And then when we think about overcoming below the line thinking, if you look at below the line thinking is like I it's not my fault. I'm right. They're wrong. I know everything there is to know. It has to happen my way. It's my way. Competitive. I'm going to get this done right. Asking ourselves questions like, okay, what did I do to contribute to this? If you didn't, let's say, no, Katherine's just late. She's late. Well, hold on. Did I put it in writing, my expectations? Did I follow up with her or I just waited till the date passed and now it's late? I couldn't have reached out to her two days ago and say, "Hey, Katherine, how's it going with this? Is it going to be on time?" I could have contributed, right? There might be something to her point, might be something else going on that we didn't know about, right? But is there something I can be could have taken ownership over and what could I have done better? That is hard to do sometimes. I want to recognize that's hard to do. The pride, we as humans have pride, etc. It's difficult. It's a challenging thing to do. But keep this as a checklist. So if you have find yourself going into a tough conversation, keep this slide or just screenshot this and ask myself, okay, what did I do to contribute to this? What else might be going on? What can I do differently? Right? And am I going in above the line or am I going in below the line? Right? And then last but not least, if you want the outcome that we set back up here, right? We said, "Here's what I want for the relationship. Here's where um um uh what I want for me, what I want for them, what I want for the relationship, and here's what I want the outcome to be." Then at the end of your conversation, you should have data, right? Oh, hold on. Let me this chat box should have uh data to back up anything you're trying to push towards hopefully. Then you should set clear goals. Here's what we want and quantifiable timelines by this date. So in the future I say, "Hey, Catherine, so let's do this. We have another project we're going to work together. Let's instead meet once a week up to that date just to touch base. Even if it's only for five minutes, let's see how it's going. Let's watch how it's moving through." And then and then um can I expect from you that you'll let me know if you get behind? Right. And I'll do the same thing for you. Right. So there's clear next steps in place and and we have aligned on what those future goals are. Right? I know I kind of breeze through that. So I just want to quickly recap. Going into tough conversations, tough conversations are predominantly tough because we're not aligned on expectations. So, don't forget, set expectations out of the gate. Number one. Number two, and actually number two, I'm changing it. Thanks to you, K Catherine. Okay. Seek to understand. Is there something that I should know that I don't previously know? Right. Number three, align on those outcomes. Like, here's what I want my outcome to be. Here's where we are. And then make sure that we're walking away with action steps and goals moving forward. Now again, you won't always perfect it. It takes years. I still make mistakes constantly. I make mistakes in my communication. Like I said, I'm really direct. People love or hate me. And so, it's I'm always a work in progress. But it's just checking yourself, understanding what you want for the relationship, and setting those clear expectations, and you should be good to go. Great. That's it team. Well, Cheyenne, thank you so much for that fantastic presentation. We really appreciate your time today. That was fun. Thanks, guys. Ladies, I'm trying to fix that. It's a Californian thing. We say guys for everything, you know. [clears throat] No. Well, I I'm from Georgia, so I just say y'all. That's better, actually. So that's to be that person. But um uh we've gone through a lot of inclusive training and guys is actually hey guys how is it going? Um uh I think it's been replaced by folks which is still kind to come off the off the mouth too. Hey folks, how is it going? But it's Yeah, that was a great I I I'll I'll work on I continue to work on that. Yes. Thank you. Any questions? Does anybody have any questions? Well, yeah. Thank you so much for kind of answering them as we went along this afternoon. Perfect. Well, thank you, Ginger. You've been great. Yes. So, do you have any final words of wisdom for all of our viewers today as we close for the afternoon? I do. I love speaking to a group of strong women. Um, we're lucky to have some strong and again, if you didn't see my my comment, Jackie heads up the women at New Relic group. Um, but I feel like every organization should have that, right? and have voices from our strong female leaders. Um, my words of wisdom to all of you are a few things. One, to imposter syndrome, nobody knows what they're doing. Nobody, even at the very top, these these especially men come into the room and they're very confident. Confidence is usually hired over competence, right? And so, learn how to carry yourself the way you see the most successful people in the organization carrying themselves. Fake it till you make it. And understand that there are people sitting around you that aren't as smart as you. You may not be as smart as people around you, but they're not as smart as you either in what you know. So own your [ __ ] right? That's number one. Number two is stick together. I think in the past it really disserviced women that we didn't stick together. I I've been around for a long time. I feel very old, but um um and the the whole world of women has been changing. I'm not saying it should be an anti-men thing. That is not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is boost your sisters up, uh support them, run, do the group like what Jackie is doing at New Relic and stick together and also support each other in growing and learning. Right. But that's my two my two pieces. Well, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. So, thank you to all of our speakers today, both our panel members and keynote speakers. And thank you to all of our viewers as well. Without all of you, these events would not be possible. So, until next time, this is Ginger Watley signing off. Have a fantastic afternoon, everyone.