Silicon Valley Women Leaders Association Chapter Meeting: The Neuroscience of Breaking Bias

[Music] Well, now we are going to move to our next presentation of the afternoon. So, Clanita, can you turn your camera on and say hello? Hello everyone. Thanks for having me here. Thanks, Ginger. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Absolutely. It is my pleasure. Yes. And we have your slides pulled up. So, take it away. The floor is all yours. Thank you. Before I go, Daniel, a great presentation and great talk on resilience and and so on and sharing your story. Uh and you know this is a good segue into my uh presentation because as Daniela alluded um leading is leading with others and today we're going to talk uh about how we can what are the tools available how we can go about doing that uh and taking different perspectives. So uh before we get into this uh I'm going to talk on a model a module that is called decide it's something by neuro leadership institute the slides here please do not forward share uh I would even refrain from taking any snapshots uh but yeah make notes uh you know follow with me along uh this uh quick presentation um and um yeah and as as quick introduction can move on to the next slide please Ginger Now my name is Quita Fernandez. I'm a physician from India. Um and uh born and b 30 years in the west coastal region. Um I came to the United States in 2010. Um after my you know giving up my practice of uh 7 to 10 years. Uh I worked with pharma industry as well as drug and device industry both. So 20 plus years um of of healthcare industry experience. I've lived in three different states here in uh in the United States and finally settled in California in Northern California uh in the Silicon Valley. Uh with that being said, I absolutely uh adore and and my hero Mahatma Gandhi uh says be the change that you wish to see in the world. Uh and I live by that. I try to live by that. And of course, Saint Mother Theresa who says yesterday is gone. Tomorrow has not yet come. We have one day. So let us begin today. So with that let us begin today. Next slide please. Um I will give you a short snippet of my uh my career journey and this kind of would will bring us back when we get into the panel uh conversation. Uh and and you would see uh uh you know uh the the positions that I have taken throughout my 20ome years in healthcare industry. It hasn't been easy. it hasn't been um always uh on a straight road or even on a plan that I started off with. Uh I was a general physician uh had a had a practice was um uh a nursing home as well uh and uh at the same time I was working with pharma pharma companies as a consultant medical advisor at times uh at times uh you know their patient safety advocate advocator and so on. came to the United States, started from a fresh slate and I joined Metronic uh and the neuromodulation division and I got into understanding regulations, FDA, um patient safety, uh customer complaints, handling, adverse event reporting and so on and so forth. Uh that gave me a deep dive. I took a deep dive and and deeper understanding into uh devices and and product safety and medical safety. Uh I moved on to Intuitive Surgical uh an excellent company uh some 20 plus years uh a leading robotic uh company out there uh and I kind of led their postmarket vigilance for North America and Asia Pacific came back to Metronic that tells you I've been with Metronic a few times um but with a different within within different roles and capacities and I I worked with the corneary structural heart division and then with the medical safety their surgical division enterprise medical safety um and as of now I'm with Philips with the enterprise medical safety but if you see the story throughout my career ups and downs have been basically the same mission if I can say my goal has to was always to be closer to my patients to be in healthcare industry um and fortunately I have been able to do that and uh be the voice for the patients even if I'm not at the hospital setting uh and so on next next slide Please with that uh today I'm going to talk about um bias and uh the mod the the model that you see is decide uh and and what is basically uh decide. So the goal of decide is very simple is to equip yourself and if you are leading a team in your organization it to equip your employees those directly reporting to you perhaps with science-based strategies and break the unconscious bias in decision making uh by adopting certain habits and I want to emphasize on the word habits all right habits are tough to form habits are tough to let go of. Uh and so it this is this may seem a simple road but it needs several attempts and really consistent attempts and uh um and and your commitment. So what are the three basic uh habits that that have been uh provided as you see on your screen? It's label and that means you identify what is the type of um unconscious bias and and you'll see further down how what are the different labels that you can go with um and and especially these biases that you are experiencing you're aware of and then mitigate of course implement strategies uh and engage your team and give them certain examples how they can mitigate uh these biases and then finally engage the team in these strategies and and and that could be an activity that you can take on after this after this learning back to your teams. Right? Next slide, please. Now, uh this is a quick guide for you as you see and and I'm sorry if it's uh you can't see it clearly. Uh but basically this is a reference guide and you can get it on their website. So go ahead and check that out. um it tells you or gives you few examples of okay what can I do less of when it comes to label and what can I do more of it's very straightforward right so if you want to think about uh as you as you as you make your decisions and you say okay I'm 100% right I know this is right stop doing that and start thinking what could be uh you know acknowledge that some of the decisions can have unconscious uh influence inuences. And if you start accepting that fact and think from that mindset, you will automatically start uh you know taking your first steps uh and recognizing unconscious bias, right? Um similarly, if you want to mitigate, you know, uh an example here is do less of stick to the status quo like know this is what this what was being done, this has worked, let's just go with it. is to think about how do I evaluate uh existing systems and processes right and I I cannot give a better analogy than what's AI today right we we've done this we we if we do not if we continue doing what we've done AI wouldn't be there today um and then engage right we sometimes I I you know there there are three examples here but I like the one where we say we fear market changes now of course I said it gives an example of market changes but I feel like I fear every change out there. There are changes in job positions, there changes within the organization structure or responsibilities and I fear all of that. But if I look at it from the gains perspective, half glass full perspective um is this change going to be beneficial? Uh and actually look at the benefits and and buckle up for that change. Um that again is a change in your mindset in your behavior that will help you in the long run. Next slide please. All right. Like I said label they do provide you how can you label this bias? It's it's they said it's a science right? So there is the seeds model. It's an acronym and each of them each of the letters stand for as you see on your slide similarity, expedience, experience, distance and safety. Um, and if we understand each of these uh biases, these five identified by them and start labeling them, it's it's really going to exhilarate your decision making in the right direction. Uh, next slide please. Perfect. So basically, here's the example, right? It's it's not defining similarity. It's putting in quotes what someone says. I feel comfortable with people like me. What does that mean? If I'm a biomemed engineer, I rather have all biomemeds on my team because they will think like me. But if you want to change that mindset and say why can I get someone who is um perhaps not the biomed but a med safety person with an healthcare understanding of uh uh with with the healthcare perspective or can I get some project managements on my team to help put the team together. I'm just throwing out things but need to think from different angles sometimes out of the box when it comes to similarity bias. Uh right. Um so that that's similarity and I and there is a slide next which kind of provides you some of the triggers as well and we'll talk about that. Um expedience is where it feels right to me so it must be true. Um that's called expedience bias and we'll go into more examples and triggers later. Experience says my perceptions are accurate and then you don't do anything because you feel that's how it should be. um distance closer is better than far and this is you know co has changed the mindset the culture the norms it has really made people push the envelope a bit um that people would say I want everyone in the office and sure stay here co realized that people you know you're a global company and people can work remotely and you can in a pandemic situation people's adrenaline rushes there's creativity there is innovation and so on. So that's kind of the examples we kind of bring for distance bias but certainly that there you know there could be different definitions of what closer is better than far right uh and safety bad is stronger than good right let let's go to the next slide this one is um this one really helps uh me give you the the like I said the tool so this is kind of a tool they call it the seeds model job aid uh when you are for example just hiring someone right or perhaps you're making some decision in a DIY project I've applied these models these model to different things to be honest both professionally and personally nothing says that you have to apply this just in your professional life uh but it's it's meant for that uh so say for example we take similarity bias like I said I feel comfortable with people like me I'm in the healthcare device industry I want to hire I want to hire hire everyone who's an MD. That's it. But what if I decide I want to not do that but I want to hire someone who you know who has different knowledge a different perspective uh maybe alternative medicine or maybe a dietician uh you know to get different kind of understanding from them how uh and the clinical impact things may have uh that may have if uh on a device that I am working on right so hiring and promotion could be one of the triggers for similarity bias uh project assignments Right? This is another example. So these could be situations where you can think am I getting similarity bias the unconscious bias out here and what are the behaviors that are indicative of this bias. Of course favoring individuals who have similar work experience like I just mentioned or favoring individuals with whom you have a mutual relationship right oh um I know that person I worked with her and I think I think we'll get get along pretty well. Um when you do that what happens it kind of narrows your uh you know you have some blinders on or it narrows your vision to say uh okay you don't want a yes man or a yes woman by your side right you want someone who can um who can be a devil's advocate on your team for example so how do you mitigate uh situations as such in the moment create shared goals focus on similarities remove distinguishing features just from whatever right um so just you know get a team hurdle if you feel you are at risk of this bias uh meet up with people around I can tell you what I've done uh especially during hiring time is I put a panel together which is which is a crossf functional panel and not only and not uh top always so they're not only senior managers or managers and so on but they're also end users people who are closer to the device or the therapy and kind of build that you know not too big a panel somewhere between three to five people a panel during the hiring process so that when they answer these questions uh we we are you know we kind of get uh some of this biases out. So deliberately considering others for a stretch opportunity, removing name and alma matter from the resume, outlining a project or role specific criteria. Uh it kind of helps this bias. Now expedience bias, right? It feels if it feels right, it must be true. Now looming deadlines, right? You have you've been given a deadline. and I have to meet him. maybe I'll just pick up this um this template and go with what they've done versus really give my 100% do the research do the evidence right good question in chat and we will come to that I have questions and and you've asked a very frequent uhly asked question uh Annabella um and so speedy speedy in the- moment decision making like how many times have you been on a Friday night you are ready to have your weekend and boom you get a call and like All right, there's a death of the patient. We had to do something about this and what do you want to do? And you're like, "Oh gosh." Uh, just pick up something that we've done previously. Pick up that template. Pick up that SOP and get it done. And you're not thinking. You're not asking the questions. What happened? What what what was was it the device? Was it the therapy? What were the sequence of events? You have to collect and investigate thoroughly before you make your decisions. And what are the behaviors? relying on what or or even who comes to mind the fastest or the most frequent, right? And uh it's important in this case, you need to paint the whole picture. Like I said, you need to have the whole sequence of events before you take a knee-jerk reaction. Explore odd ideas, break the decision- making process into chunks, and take your time. Don't feel pressurized or pushed. Believe me, if if someone calls you in a Friday night, I'm I'm telling them which which part of the country you are, which regulators work on the weekend, tell me if it's doable that you want answers now to get this closed on a on a Sunday night with a bow on the top. Uh and it's always like no, it can wait till Monday. And sometimes you make decisions, come back on Monday, there's a bigger group and those decisions are yet not, you know, finalized. So um prevent measures is make a list of skills that are needed. Prioritize options against that criteria. Now when I say make a make make a list when they say make a list of skills needed basically what they're saying is that someone calls you on a Friday night think about what are the next steps and tell them we need to discuss this and we'll connect with the right people. Give me some moment to sleep over it for the night. Tomorrow I'll send out an email and Monday we can gather this information and get the right people on the table. So prioritizing and and making a calming that patient down a person down who's calling you and calming yourself down is very important experience bias my perceptions are accurate right sometimes when you come to a certain stage in your life in your career in your you know like I said I've got some 20 plus years of and I kind of land up doing this a lot this bias and I'm going to say it I'm going to admit it I have to hold myself back and saying what am I doing you know stop this think about the bias you're getting in here. So past collaborations, procedural familiarity like you've done it this way, this has worked in this industry. Why don't you do it? Stop that and think about it. Am I doing do I have experience bias? So again, if I'm engaging same people that have the same thought processes um and always going to that person to that I have this one source of truth and and going going to that doesn't work, right? Um yeah. So getting different perspectives is is very important. No matter if you're 20 years, 30 years, I some folks have been 50 years in the industry. Um you you need to rely on your experience. Yes. You need to rely on your expertise. Yes. But you need to leave the room so others can speak up their minds and provide their perspectives. And you need to think over those perspect uh perspectives, right? So multiple opinions, deliberate on that. Think about your end goal. What do you want? The results, the impact that you want to make. Um, and imagine another point of view. Am I missing something? And of course, build in time for other reviews. Designate a process obtaining information. You need to kind of uh have that inbuilt. Um, the next bias is the distance bias, right? Closer is better than far again. Oops. Did we go to the next? Sorry, I didn't mean the next slide. Can you move a slide behind? Okay. Uh so distance bias again uh project timelines short versus long outcomes remote working all of those behaviors. Are we overlooking individuals who are remote right but have got that talent have got that skill that is most required and you have exhausted uh the area you are in. So can you think about hybrid working or remote working options or what other options are there? I know maybe today it's challenging but when we want people to attend offices but again is that important or is the talent that will help you down the line important right um and again to mitigate take the distance out of the equation say if you didn't have someone working uh in in in Singapore there in Singapore but you cannot find that talent anywhere in the United States you've done and exhausted you you have that and you want to hire that talent talent. It could just be for for timing working remote and and they can come in. So there are lots of things to think about it but think about do not uh eliminate it right off the bat. Think about how other ways can they work if you really really want that talent. Right? Decide as if the benefits would yield sooner a lot time for remote collaborators and employers and so on. The last bias is safety bias. This is a tough one even for me to understand. bad is stronger than good. That means organizational changes, uh invested effort and resources. These are some of the triggers. And what we do is overweighing potential um losses over uh over gains, holding on to projects that are no longer viable or fruitful. Right? So these this is a difficult concept sometimes and we all do it. We we feel it's going to be bad. it's going to be bad and so let's just not even think about the good in it. Uh so imagine giving advice, right? How do you decide for someone else? Uh you if you have to decide for someone else, imagine giving advice. Assume the decision is made and consider how much data you need to offset the risk of this bias. Um and again, how do you do preventive measures, compare concerns to long-term goals, and evaluate the opportunity in a decision? So before you move on to the next one to the next slide Ginger uh again I really want to call on to people to think about these five biases similarity expedience experience distance and safety. Uh there are several tools available on on the site uh you know say for example you can practice they have a practice tool called if and then so if this is the situation what would be the outcome? So have the if and then uh on a notepad when you're trying to get eliminate the biases. We have some five questions which are frequently asked questions and I feel these are these are really important questions to bring to you all. Uh because like I said these are these could be part of your questions. One is why can't I just stop myself from being biased right remember unconscious bias involves the processes in the brain. They have studied this. It's not that you you have to and uh stop it. It is inbuilt in you. Recognizing that your decision- making is influenced by bias because we all have brains does nothing to change that. So you simply can't catch yourself being biased because bias remains unconscious hence unconscious. It's the operations are simply invisible to us even in our own minds. That is why it is important to be aware and label these. the labels are provided and an attempt to catch these mitigating bias requires using of these strategies that we just discussed that curb its influence going forward and when we don't believe we are being biased at all. So remember habit that's why we started saying of it's a habit and um and like people say it takes 21 days to form a habit. It might take 21 days for you to understand as you keep on operationalizing these uh the seeds model. Next slide please. So is unconscious bias always bad? Right now I've talked about all the effects effects of this bias and and therefore this model in place that that job aid that they are giving you to say help yourself your employees uh to get rid of the bias and get you the best talent pool or the best impact and so on. So am I saying is this bias bad? So no unconscious bias is not always bad like I said it's inbuilt for some reason right it is necessary our brain evolved to use biases to help us make decisions swiftly and less with less effort based on minimal information given to us now it is essential that our survival as a species species and even today makes it possible for us to react more efficiently and effectively to the demands of our day-to-day work. Unconscious bias doesn't always lead us to the wrong path. But it's only when a decision meets a certain threshold of importance because it's potentially costly or it could get wrong or because it could have a long-term impact um that it makes sense to take some additional steps that we look at our biases, identify these biases and ensure that our decision isn't biased. Right. Next. Next slide, please. So in my organization we need to make decisions quickly right expedate expediate bias how can I break bias when I have to move so fast right the strategies that mitigate bias are not always time consuming and I can tell you firsthand uh and you probably do this to your children I I I don't know how many of you all joined the call have children I have got I've got two great daughters and it's always to tell them to do something the right way is so time consuming is what I you think right but then if you sit them at the table and you have a set of rules or you have a set of steps that they can follow every day that first day might take me an hour to help them understand but subsequently as they develop that habit of doing that it is less burdensome on me and so I know it's it's a simple analogy but again as a mother I land up giving those um it is it is not always that time consuming but when they are it's useful to think about it in a different way. How long long does or would it take to undo the wrong or the downstream actions? You took a new hire and they landed up you know you didn't follow the steps perhaps you missed it you were in a hurry and then the training the training which was for a month lands up to be three to six months the feedback you have you get you have to work on the feedback you have you're answerable to cross functional partners if they are not happy with your new hire and so on. So taking a little bit more time right at the front end and binding of that that cross functional panel as the example that I gave you will help you a great to save a great deal of time on the back end. So ultimately your organization will move faster and with fewer mistakes. Next slide please. Why do some biases seem to be more of a problem in my company than the others? And this I mean say we talk we have LinkedIn networks and connections and and so on and so this question did seem appropriate. So while everyone is vulnerable to the biases that we talked about in the seeds uh model circumstances in the environment can make some biases even more likely to be triggered. Now for example when things move quickly and time and pressure is high experience biases are more likely. When companies are global and colleagues are on the same team work in different offices or remotely different time zones, distant biases will arise. And when an organization is experiencing a lot of change, safety biases are often prevalent. So it really depends which organization you are working for, at what phase are these organizations if you know the bell curve of a change. If you all know that, then it really is um it really depends where you are in this change that these biases will seep in. Next question. Next slide. Sorry. How does culture impact biases? All human beings are impacted by fi by the by these biases. Every one of us. They are a result of how the brain is structured and therefore it's universal. So just know it's not you, it's not me, it's not just the people in this room. Everyone has these and and this and and neuro leadership institute has provided the five labels. because you never know there might be a sixth label you might come up with. However, the content of certain biases particularly the similarity biases can and do change as function of culture because different cultures can have different stereotypes um about groups and some group differences can seem more salient than others. Um and I can say you know me being a nation coming coming from India coming to the United States for a long time I wouldn't even tell anyone what I'm doing or what I want to do and I was like my actions will speak louder than what I get that promotion based on how they see I'm doing it very soon uh I learned that that's not the case. If you have a plan for your career in life, speak up. Talk to people. Tell your leaders that this is the plan you are. You want to be here in the next 10 years, you want to be here in the next 5 years. Uh ask them for a plan to help you guide what steps you need to take in your versus just sitting back and just doing and saying, "My culture says you don't need to ask. My culture says your actions will speak loud. It doesn't work. My culture says keep working hard. Keep putting in those hours. someone will see that and give you a promotion. I hope you're not laughing on that because that's not that's not exactly how the world turns around, right? Uh next slide, please. How can I address it when someone else is being biased? Right? I this is this is again a tough one like I feel uh you know you as you take your trainings you learn your experience comes into hand and now you feel my colleague is being biased and it's a sensitive one I you do not want to lose your friendship your peer uh your connections or maybe it's your boss who is biased and you don't want to come in the wrong way right so it's it's it's a sensitive subject because many people assume that being biased is a flaw like they're like oh you think I'm doing that rather than a consequence of simply having a brain right it's best not to directly accuse someone of engaging in uh that they are biased but instead speak in broader terms about how our thinking might impact that particular bias. So examples here are like you know we are under so much time pressure we probably have some experience bias let's slow down a little now if that group understands experience bias and they've done the seeds model this is a great way to go about it let's make sure that we don't fall victim to similarity bias when thinking about the best candidate for the job you can use these words also or basically my take on it is let's let's just talk and connect I you know I I think you're doing you're doing good but I feel there are certain things that we could do better on and I think this could be an impact so even bring the impact that you think could be wrong or right uh if these biases are there uh next slide I'm thinking this is the last one ginger right so this is this is just an activity uh guide that I kind of put together I wasn't sure if I would have the time but uh it's basically just saying that is if you have a if you have a bias Try labeling that bias with the model. If you want to mitigate, try putting in some mitigation. Once you label it, try putting the mitigation from the from the ones that we discussed. And then engage. I think it's very important in any of these steps. Engage people. I thought somebody was on the roof. Uh you engage people. Uh next slide, please. Right. For you to there's an action plan here. Basically what I'm saying is nothing to do now but go back and as you as you listen to me today uh go back to your uh you know to your offices or to your desk and identify one opportunity where you can accept and label bias in your decision- making. Identify one opportunity where you can use the strategies that we've just spoken about in your decision- making and think about what actions how engage what what engagement you will or what collaboration you will bring bring forth and make this kind of a goal for the next three months is as you identify and you'll see it and and see in the next three months if you can do this activity and the next slide is a wrap-up I believe right as as we As I conclude this session really what do uh are you currently doing to address and mitigate bias? Think about that. Are you doing it and what opportunities do you see to start creating these habits within yourself and within your team? So you're the role model, right? And what insights are you having? The first thing could be just bring this kind of training connect with Neuro Leadership Institute bring it back to your teams and have them be able that could be the start point. All right, with that I think we are done. Ginger and I'm happy to take any questions. Well, thank you so much for that wonderful presentation and yes, let's um let's go through some of the questions that have come in through the chat. All right, we'll start with this first one from Annabelle and she says, "What about those that can't see their bias? How can I kindly give them career advice?" Right. Um I think we've covered that in one of the questions but as you said um when they cannot see their bias it's important to for you to kind of if you're a colleague a peer a friend have that conversation a it's a sensitive conversation at the same time it's a crucial conversation but I often begin by telling that person I'm invested in you I'm having this conversation because I'm invested in you right and I want to make I I want to show you the impact ice can have start off with the impact. Think what are the what is the bias yourself what is the bias label that bias think about some of what are the mitigating actions that you can bring about and talk about the engagement and the impact that's how I would go go about the sensitive topic of telling someone about the bias bias they have and I might even add a few more steps right like if you feel like you cannot have that conversation and it's going to be a tough conversation reach out to to some of the peers or colleagues uh and gain their perspectives. You need not give names. You need not give situations. Uh pull in some examples. Again, helping that colleague with examples and impact that can have because of the bias may help them see and think more. Um and that's how would open up the dialogue. Like I said, I'm invested in you. I am for your uh benefit here and I want to give it to you uh as I see it. Question. Well, thank you so much. Well, I think we have time for one more question and everyone um and Quinita is going to stay around for the paid discussion. So, Quen says, "How can I speak up or should I speak up when unconscious bias is happening? We are a marketing team making corporate decisions." Yes. When it comes to marketing teams, it it certainly is a challenge and and you're making making decisions. Now at that time I think about my mission and vision like if you're working for a company that has the mission and I'm uh Quinn I'm not sure about your company but say for my for my companies that I worked with previously like I said I worked with three device major device companies uh they have a mission statement and their mission statement is patient safety foremost so when it comes to marketing and commercialization and I feel that there are biases we start off with that mission and safety uh you know uh vision and talk about that and bring that up and say are we holding our marketing and commercial counterparts to that uh mission and vision are we answer are we able to answer to that mission are we looking at looking at that credibility of a of our company so bringing in the mission statements in your conversation having people think about it like to an extent I would kind of you know sometimes of people were rushing through things and I would kind of land up using one of the mission statements and mindset that said in the speed of move moving with speed but decisiveness and taking in the right decisions let's not just hurry up because we have to move it but let's make the right decision even if it is uh it'll take a little longer but at the end of the day it's going it's going to be the right decision that that's what comes because you don't want to lose your credibility with the company so I would highly encourage to lean back on your company's mission and vision. Use those statements if you want to show someone the bias that they are going through. And even if that doesn't help, really pulling some of those people aside and having some candid straightart conversations uh would also be beneficial. If you feel you are not equipped, don't let your voice be unheard. Reach out to your supervisor and share concerns. Uh in a very very open candid manner and say I learned about these biases very recently and I fear that there probably will be an impact because I see uh you know I I I see the safety bias going on this project is going on for such a long time uh and I think the we are we are just thinking that bad is stronger but we are not thinking out of the box things as such I hope I answered that question thank you all we have one more question I don't if you have time for what we have time for one more question and let's see Lisa says I wonder how you institute this from top do you institute this top down or through HR outside of just being more aware of yourself or with your team how does this organically branch out from there or up yes so you know you coming here is the first win and the first step if you're a women leader you have in your role and capabilities to branch it out from top down. Go ahead, do it. I'll tell you the ways we've done it. The very first time uh and this was back in 2018. In 2018 when when uh I was introduced to unconscious bias, we never waited on anyone. We never waited on the leadership. We never waited. We got the content. We created our own deck. We educated the team. Two years later the HR introduced this to the team. So it led through the HR. Now understand when you are doing it yourself you probably gather materials and content which is kind of you know maybe the baby steps when HR introduces there is more engagement more more teams engage it comes in more with an authority. So certainly engage your HR if you don't want to do with your team. Uh coming top down is very important. Now usually I do not like a top down hierarchy. I like a flat hierarchy. But if you are in that top down hierarchy, it's important to like you can take this uh reach out to your HR or reach out to your top management and say we need to get the team to think about biases and there is a science behind it and there's the institute and they have a lot of research and content to share. Um know that these uh folks provide micro workshops. You can have the 30-inut conversation. There's one hour workshop. There are workshops with activity for your team members throughout and they can build it in their goal. It's very important if you are in that authorative role make use of that and get it top down so that it it kind of becomes uh everyone does this as part of their goals and it's important like like you like you saw these biases are inbuilt everywhere. Uh but if not, if you are leading a smaller group and you want to get this done with your team immediately, there's nothing stopping you. Thank you for that. Well, as we move to our panel discussion, do you have any final words of wisdom for all of our viewers this today? Well, no final words of wisdom. I am the last person, but if I have to leave you all with something, I would just say, you know, be yourself. uh here is the tool to help you understand and and put that to action. You all do a great job in anything and everything that you do day in and day out. U this is just another additional tool to help you build an habit and really to make that impact that you're looking for uh and reduce downstream. So it I will just say this don't or rather stop working too hard work smart and and this is a smart tool for you. Thank you. Well, thank you so